MMORPG pitfalls and faults

[Jonathan]

Since we're busy documenting all the good things we've learned from collective decades of MMORPG experience, let's also document the features that didn't work out so well.

For example, in SB, successful guilds generally failed due to their own success, apparently by design. The design did not allow people to delegate responsibility much. In fact, things usually worked better if there was a central authority with control over everything. If the guild was successful, two things happened: they got lots of people and lots of property. Lots of people make lots of demands and create lots of problems. They also create lots of money, but that didn't compensate for the demands on the guild leader's time. Time and again, guild leaders realized they were spending more time managing their affairs in the damn game than they were in real life. They all abdicated or quit, and every time I heard about the guild dissolved, more or less.

The other problem was that the more property you owned, the more time you had to spend feeding the beast. Property demanded upkeep and defense. Upkeep required constant monster farming. Leaders had to cajole other players to contribute, because there was no automatic mechanism. Defense required constant vigilance, because another guild could attack at any time. People wound up spending all their damn free time playing the game, either farming or guarding their town. The systems put in place to keep midnight raids down only served to limit the size of towns, so you had to have that many more towns to defend. A year and a half later they patched in systems to automate farming and automate defense, but it was too little too late. This time suck had already burned out plenty of players who stuck out the crashes and lag.

[Peijen]

uncontrolled griefing. small percentage of people like this, the griefers mostly. pain in the butt for rest of players. of course only UO had open PvP as far as I know, I am pretty sure I am wrong about that but whutjoogonnado

[quantus]

Jonathan is right that efficient hierarchy is important. This is what ripped appart my flag and crew in PP. We started having to spend too much time sorting everything out between ourselves and never being able to make decisions. Shops were fairly well structured in their management. The problem is that you needed your crew and flag to help keep your shop supplied with resources to make stuff though. If they failed, you couldn't help but fail unless you did their work yourself. This is NOT easy. Forage runs by yourself suck because you're trying to pilot a ship by yourself and not get into battles. This is exactly the opposite what most people do when solo'ing in a ship. They're looking to meet briggands and earn so poe for themself.

There are other solo options like doing a shop puzzle to keep shop production going, or playing drinking games with random people or swordfighting a random person or swabbie (AI). All the while, your see the flag and crew chats in case other people come online and decide to do stuff. Hell, you could even hire yourself out to other crews for a while using the message board. Come to think of it, the message board is a great idea. You apply for a posted job, and then if accepted, you're whisked (instant teleport) to the group that hired you. This is the ultimate in keeping down the downtime. You can't be whisked if the boat is in battle though. PP also broke ship battle into two parts which is interesting in and of itself.

[quantus]

Oh, one of our best shop managers used to find arbitrage opportunities and exploit them, including buying out competitor's shops of goods so we'd be the only producer. For rum and canonballs, this was awesome since every ship needed these things. The devs stepped in though and just created some competition out of thin air to try and stop this. I don't think this was the best choice by the devs, but hey, it's a game. Anyways, he was a financial guy in real life, and the game started taking up a lot of his time to manage. Eventually he quit being a shop manager because he realized he was doing in the game what he did in real life. The funny part was that he quit his job in real life already since he didn't like doing arbitrage and yet it took him how many months to make the corrilary to the game.

So, yeah, that's one of my interesting stories from PP. I think this applies to a lot of people. You need to make the game match what they do in real life and they'll just keep doing it because it's what they know how to do.

[Peijen]

not enough player story content. Take EQ, "oh yeah I camped out at xx location for xx creature get xx loot, then I yell at xx player for getting in my way." Like I mention in one of the posts UO has some interesting player stories that you can actually tell people and they sound kind of fun.

When I was play UO with Alan and my brother, we use to go to this dungeon to fight trolls. There is where we meet one of the better PK I have ever seen, Sir Ancha (or something like that). I fought against him a few time and almost, almost manage to kill him once.

One day after he killed me, a large group of players (~15) dropped in to go into deeper area for a high level monster. They saw my ghost and then they saw him. Immediately they attacked him. Sir Ancha has been pking in the area for a long time and knows the it real well. Use terrain to his advantage. He killed half of them before the group retreat, I mean 1 against 15 and he won.

The best PvPer I saw was when my brother and I were hunting lich in this one area and meet at butt nake old man with a club. We took turn killing liches and chatted with each other. One of the lich manage to kill my brother and I during our turn, and we were on our way to get resurrected when we saw two pk came in. They attacked the butt naked guy immediately. Now this guy is not wearing any armor and is using a club, club!!! He kicked their ass hard and laughed their ass out of there. you have to be there so damn funny. Now I think about it I wonder if he was cheating ...

I dont hear many interesting stories like that in new mmorpg, it's always, how to get this loot, how to setup my build, how to do this quest. There needs to be more player interaction other than grouping and raid.

[Jonathan]

Dying has to be fun, I think.

One of my best player stories is from WOTmud. On a lark, I created a fighter called Narf. I gave him a big club and never said anything except "Narf!" I always entered berserk mode and pounded deer until one or the other of us was dead (you can't run away in berserk). It was just a joke character that I never leveled past newbie status.

I was busy pounding deer into bloody pulp when some trollocs did a Caemlyn run. Apparently some high level dark players created some low level trollocs to take on a suicide raid. There were a lot more trollocs than usually came that far south. One newbie trolloc found me in a corner pounding deer and smacked me around. Since I was already in berserk mode, I couldn't run away. I yelled "Narf!" at him and used all my specials. He beat me to the point that I was almost dead, but I pounded him sufficiently that he took a step back and retreated. In WOTmud, you had to retreat in order to move around, since it's a MUD. He tried circling around to hook back up with the other trollocs, I think, or maybe regain a few HP before killing me off. Instead of retreating since I only had a couple HP myself and was right beside a town full of guardsmen, I charged after him and caught up with him, still in berserk and unable to retreat if things went bad. I killed him by the skin of my teeth and bellowed "Narf!" at his corpse.

[VLSmooth]

There needs to be more player interaction other than grouping and raid.

Quests, Missions, Eco-Warriors, Escorts, AFs, BCNMs, Garrison, Expenditionary Forces, rock! (and have substantial rewards!)

Btw, an interesting approach SE took (to the chagrin of some) are level capped events. This allows low and high levels to play together with more or less equal footing, with the sometimes significant exceptions of equipment and player skill.

On this same tangent, people might find City of Heroes' (CoH) sidekick system interesting. Essentially, you can group with anyone regardless of level as a sidekick. This temporarily raises your level to the main person's level -1. I also think this gains proportional experience for the lower level character as well. After hearing about it, it sounds like a LONG overdue feature...

[Jonathan]

Actually, I had another good story. I was trying to hunt trollocs for the first time with my mid-level character (that was as powerful as I got in that game). I was a ranger so I could track.

Some trollocs came south to raid below the border town. I met them between the border town and Tar Valon. We traded blows for a while. Some Borderguards came down, though, and the trollocs split up. I had almost killed a guy by this point, so I set out after him. I was tracking blind since I didn't know the area, it being my first time there, but I was pretty healthy so I felt confident. I chased him off the road and straight into a couple of NPC trollocs. I knew there were other humans nearby and I had killed NPC trollocs before, so I engaged them. The PC trolloc reappeared and started beating on me, which was too much, so I fled. It was only then that I realized the PC trolloc had led me straight to a permanent trolloc camp south of the border. I fled straight into the arms of an NPC fade and a half dozen more NPC trollocs and got my ass smacked hard.

Incidentally, I dislike not being able to see at a glance what you're next to in MUDs.

[Peijen]

Quests, Missions, Eco-Warriors, Escorts, AFs, BCNMs, Garrison, Expenditionary Forces, rock! (and have substantial rewards!)

Tell me a story about your game play.

Also, Vinny, you need to stop playing ffxi and try a different game. I am very guilty of what I am about to accuse you, but damnit there are other games out there that had good ideas. ffxi is not the peak of all mmorpg. I still compares everything to UO, but at least I can say I had played them.

[Peijen]

It was only then that I realized the PC trolloc had led me straight to a permanent trolloc camp south of the border. I fled straight into the arms of an NPC fade and a half dozen more NPC trollocs and got my ass smacked hard.

Incidentally, I dislike not being able to see at a glance what you're next to in MUDs.

hehe, that's pretty sweet. on his part not your of course.

[VLSmooth]

ffxi is not the peak of all mmorpg.

I agree. However, it has to have done something right, or else I would have already left.

[Peijen]

ffxi is not the peak of all mmorpg.

I agree. However, it has to have done something right, or else I would have already left.

same could be said about IRC. Give some example of how the game is keeping you interested. use specific examples. while other will make fun you will, I will keep it to a minimum, because it's good research idea. You have a play style very different than rest of us, however I am sure there are lots of people with similar play style like yours. The game ideas that's been throwing around is what Jon and I would like to see, but I realize there are other type of players and they might not enjoy our style. However you have to do more then say, "ffxi solved this problem" or "that's just teleport in ffxi" Give me more details!!!

[Peijen]

Quests, Missions,

How do I do this quest?

Eco-Warriors,

explain this one

Escorts,

quest

AFs, BCNMs, Garrison,

explain!!!

Expenditionary Forces,

raid.

again player-player interaction stories. what happend bewteen me and xyz. killing monster is fun, but it's hardly memorable.

[quantus]

Oh, one thing you should not do is put place holders for things you want to implement into the UI until after you implement them. There were several interesting things listed in PP's interface that I was interested in see, but they haven't gotten around to it, and thus I'm disappointed. I actually do want to explore contrary to Jonathan saying that people don't want to do that sort of thing. There was an exploring trait listed in PP as one of the things they didnt' get to. I was disappointed after a while of not seeing it. Finally, they took all the extra stuff out a couple months after release and that really disappoints me since they'll probably not get back to it for a long while. In short, don't set expectations high and people will be happier with your game. MUDDs don't try to make cool 3D worlds and the players of them aren't disappointed that it doesn't exist.

Sorry if I belabored this point, but it's late and hard for me to think concisely if I ever could.

edit: that was me. i logged on using her computer and forgot.

[VLSmooth]

I didn't want to respond since there's a ton of details, which are probably best for you to research on your own. Here's a summary, although I'm bound to miss a lot:

• Quests
  Events that vary greatly in task and reward. They help flesh out the world, giving the npcs character. Quests are usually independent of each other, but there are still quite a few inter-related quests. Furthermore, completing quests raises respective fame levels, allowing you access to higher fame / reward quests, as well as lower prices from npc vendors.
  
  Examples include simple quests from collecting 2 bat wings for gil to a paranoid elvaan afraid of the dark, to advanced job flags quests, to level cap quests (genkai) for raising your level beyond a specific point, to Artifact (AF) quests for powerful job-specific equipment, to avatar quests for summons acquisition, etc.
  
  All of these events include story, especially the AFs.
  
  See here to learn more.
• Missions
  The core missions are special quests related to each country bound by a large interconnected plot. They particularly pertain to what happened in Vana'diel in the past which explains what's happening now to how you can influence it. It's particularly amusing to see different countries view the same event from drastically different perspectives.
  
  Completing missions increases your rank with a country, with is usually associated with a hefty gil reward as well as special perks. Two notable ones are an airship pass for rank5 and access to Zilart (the 1st expansion) missions after completing rank6.
  
  Other than the core missions, each expansion (Zilart / Chains of Promathia (CoP)) offer their own set of missions, further exploring the mysteries of Vana'diel and offering even greater rewards.
  
  For example, completing Zilart Mission (ZM) 13 provides access to Tu'lia, the so-called realm of the gods which resides in a floating city far above Vana'diel (I still need access to it ><). Also, completing CoP chapter 1 (different organizational structure for coherency?), allows access to the Tavnazian Archipelago, a ruined kingdom heavily referred to by previous quests and missions. Tavnazia is the land destroyed in the FFXI intro FMV btw.
  
  See here to learn more.
• Eco-warrior Quests
  This is a special level capped quests that is repeatable once per week for fun, gil, and xp scrolls! Nice event to bring an LS together.
• Garrison Quests
  These are special level capped quests that pit players against a beastmen invasion consisting of various waves and a boss. Rewards include special items only dropped in Garrison consisting of weapons, armor, and mannequin pieces (another quest, increases Mog House storage and let's you strut your gear in style). A large variety of these quests exist with differing level caps. Another nice LS event.
• Escort Quests
  These are special quests (some new ones are level capped!) that involve escorting an npc through dangerous zones for an experience reward (possibly more with the new ones added). This adds yet another aspect to the game.
• Burning Circle Notorious Monsters (BCNMs)
  These are special level capped instanced battles, most of which allow a party of 6 (themis orb is an alliance!) to fight challenging battles for extremely valuable drops depending on the BCNM. To prevent exploitation, entry is purchased through the use of beastmen seals, which have a chance of dropping from any easy prey mob or higher.
• Conquest (need to explain this before Expenditionary Forces)
  Conquest in the system by which the three main countries compete. Gaining experience in a zone while under the effect of signet allows crystals to drop (used for synthesis and crafting), contributes to your country's influence in the zone, and earns you Conquest Points (CP) to spend on country specific equipment (selection determined by rank). Dying removes your countries influence and adds to the beastmen faction (total of 4 factions).
  
  Every week (Sunday morning for us), a tally is conducted. The faction with the highest influence in each region controls it. If a country controls the region, its citizens gain access to the outpost (OP), allowing them to teleport (if they've completed the corresponding supply quest and meet the level requirement) to the zone from their country and vice versa for a minimal fee, set HP for free, retrieve signet from said OP, access to the npc store, etc. If beastmen control the region, crystals can no longer drop in that zone for a week, but CP gain is significantly increased.
  
  Furthermore, a global tally of the number of regions controlled is computed. Your country's ranking determines what CP items you can buy, the location of regional vendors (country that owns the region has the regional vendor), the cost of switching allegiances (very cool for replay value), npc item availability (higher ranking = more items), etc.
  
  If one country controls over 50% of the regions, the other two contries are automatically allianced against the incumbent, providing the regional influence bonuses to both countries, etc.
  
  As for reasoning, the conquest system was devised by the neutral Duchy of Jeuno which united the countries in the Great War. This (and Conflict (aka PVP)) is to keep the countries on their toes and keep the beastmen in check.
• Expenditionary Forces (EF)
  These are special quests given by countries to groups of its citizens to directly influence Conquest. As a warning, I haven't had time to do these yet, so the following information may be slightly incorrect.
  
  An EF quest requires a minimum of 6 people and a chosen region controlled by beastmen country. Going on an EF quest teleports your group to said region to hunt down beastmen flags, which appear randomly. Upon activating one (a conscious decision), all members are level capped (level dependent on zone) and a party of beastmen is spawned, complete with 2 hour abilities. Winning the fight adds a significant amount of influence and yields CP as well as beastmen treasure. Also, for convenience, all members are given a special warp scroll to use when done.
• Ballista (Conflict, PVP)
  The first of SE's PVP encounters in FFXI. This is a fairly complex team-based game, so I'll let you research it on your own. I haven't participated yet since I'm more interested in the other aspects of FFXI. Kavic, Shigera, Trowah, et al. have experience though.

There's much much much more, but I've think I've typed enough -_-.

[Peijen]

How do I do this quest?

I meant see my previous post about not enough player-player interaction story.

Expenditionary Forces,

raid.

again my take is

killing monster is fun, but it's hardly memorable.

[quantus]

I wonder if there could be a way to merge worms2 with CS...

[Jonathan]

What, like Gunbound?

Or a FPS team deathmatch with one player per team?

[quantus]

probably like gunbound, bit I haven't played it..