WoW Beta

[Jonathan]

I figure this deserves a post, though likely none of us will play it. As far as I can tell, it sounds like it's trying to be another FFXI: great execution, no particularly good ideas.

[VLSmooth]

Argh, if I wasn't so lazy, I'd devil's advocate the no particular good ideas comment more, but I'll let it slide with this:

What level did you get to before you quit? There's a lot more to the game as you advance levels. Also, with a good party (I set up an LS PT here), 6 of us went from lv10 to lv19 in 3 sessions, ~4k xp/hr, at worst, 1 lv/hr. For me, that was lv1-19 in 3 days (~10-12 hours total I think)

True, it's hard to schedule everyone, but since we agree to only level these jobs with the static group, it's been a blast

[Alan]

No particularly good ideas means nothing revolutionary, nothing innovative. He didn't say FFXI was a bad game, just a plain old MMORPG much like any other MMORPG out there.

In other words, prettty much everything FFXI has is also in EQ, DAOC, or any other MMORPG.

[Alan]

Also FFXI isn't much fun unless you can dedicate large chunks of time to it.

[Jonathan]

I really can't add anything to Alan's comments, except: Ditto for me.

I can flesh out my earlier statement about FFXI with this change in wording: no particularly great ideas. Actually, there are some good ideas in FFXI, just none compelling enough to really raise the bar.

• Instanced boss battles. NM as I understand them still require camping, but if you want to do a mission you can always get the baddie whenever you meet the prereqs. Several MMORPGs in the pipeline claim to have instancing, but I think FFXI may be the first. Especially if you take it from the date of Japanese launch.

• Newbie drops are valuable to high level players. Creates a real working economy. The AH is probably the best implementation of a player economy out there. SWG also has some features in this regard, however.

• Combat perks. There's a whole list of these. No ninja looting, no kill steals, good loot division tools, player combos for greater damage. I don't think any of these originated in FFXI, but they are well implemented and combine well.

• Plot. Lots of MUDs have ongoing stories. UO certainly had a kind of dynamic going on. SB had some GMs paid to play creature roles. FFXI is fairly unique in that everyone gets to experience the story, not just the few chosen ones, but the cost of that is the uniqueness of the story. As I understand it, there are three interwoven stories in FFXI, one for each city, and every player in a particular city experiences the same stuff.

Really, the only reason I mention WoW is that I hold a little glimmer of hope that Blizzard will come up with a way to make it fun even for players who don't dedicate large chunks of time to it. After all, the way Blizzard made their bucks was creating well-executed games that were enjoyable by the masses. We'll see.

[VLSmooth]

No particularly good ideas means nothing revolutionary, nothing innovative. He didn't say FFXI was a bad game, just a plain old MMORPG much like any other MMORPG out there.

In other words, prettty much everything FFXI has is also in EQ, DAOC, or any other MMORPG.

Heh, I never knew a good idea had to be new. My mistake

[Alan]

Heh, I never knew a good idea had to be new. My mistake

The term "idea" does not necessarily mean new, but it does have a connotation of something generated, as opposed to copied.

Also, considering the context in which the word is used in this case, there is a very strong implied meaning of "something new".

[Dave]

I think most companies have looked at the sucessful mmorpgs and know how they need to design a game to keep subscribers paying for a long as possible, and i dont think they will ever target the "casual gamer" anymore, since most will lose interest whenever the next "thing" comes along. Im sure if we played WoW instead of FFXI, our lvl spread would be just as huge, and most of us would be camping for items or gold, ala dialo 2.

That's where single player rpgs come in! or short multiplayer ones like Neverwinter nights, which is hear has many cool player made mods

[Zekmyr]

I figure this deserves a post, though likely none of us will play it. As far as I can tell, it sounds like it's trying to be another FFXI: great execution, no particularly good ideas.

That pretty much sums up how I feel as well. After having played several MMORPGS (EQ, AO, DAoC, FFXI), each for at least a few months, I think FFXI was the least innovative of all of them. It's hard to complain about the game, because there isn't any real "problems" like many other games have, there's just a lack of something.

I have a feeling WoW will be the same way, but who knows, maybe Blizzard will surprise me. I just wish someone would do a good space MMORPG or a newer sci-fi MMORPG like AO. Then again, I kinda enjoy the freedom of not having all my time sucked up by one game right now.

Zekmyr

[Jonathan]

Dave is right.

[Jonathan]

Incidently, I have long thought that a space MMORPG could provide gameplay reasons for a lot of the technological limitations on current MMOGs. I don't really know that it amounts to a more compelling game, but FWIW*

Each shard could be a planet. Move to a different planet, change servers.
Instead of player death, you could have vehicle death. Unit death. Something along those lines. Think MechWarrior here. SWG and AO have these weird cloning/insurance things, but I dunno.
For PVP, a guild could be capable of controlling entire shards. When they wipe out all opposition, they could move to another planet and try it again. This gives people some ability to effect sustained victory without "beating" the game. Plus, you could have neat planetary landing battles.

Anyway, wake me when they make a mech MMOG.


*I'm the new Vinny!

[VLSmooth]

*I'm the new Vinny!

IT HAS BEGUN!
(cue Mortal Kombat music)

[Jonathan]

Damn. I need to listen to that mp3 now.

[Jonathan]

There can be only one.

[VLSmooth]

There can be only one.

~Here we are~
~Born to be kings~
~We're the princes of the universe~
(Highlander TV Opening Song)

[Jonathan]

Ooh, and instead of PvE, you could have PvDronesOwnedByOtherPlayersWhichDon'tCostVeryMuchButAreKindOfAnnoyingToReplaceThusPresentingMinorChallengesToNewPlayers, or PvDOBOPWDCVMBAKOATRTPMCTNP.

I'm thinking specifically some kind of resource gathering unit, like Starcraft peons. And then you could have players able to purchase defender units for their resource gathering units, and these would constitute your higher level PvE.

And all the crafting would be automatable, but in a fun way. And there would be in-game newsgroups for all the different socializers. And some planets would be the only places to get certain resources (spice!) and those would be hotly contested. And there wouldn't be any farming or grinding, ever. And there would be really big space battles and pilotable vehicles.

Okay, back to work.

[Jonathan]

No, wait.

I am a Master of the Universe, thank you very much.

Now back to work.

[VLSmooth]

Ooh, and instead of PvE, you could have...

Strange, but after reading that I have a feeling Jonathan would like Total Annihilation, a RTS game I hated... Short story, tons of escalation, big battles, and no resource issues. Sounds good right?

Unfortunately, it was more of the same old, same old, where skill didn't seem to matter much, since the resources were unlimited. Whee, losses didn't hurt (can always build more), big battles, nothing accomplished. Whee~

Strangely enough, I like the fact Starcraft and Warcraft III have a significant amount of skill associated, if you wanted to be good. Finite resources enforced change, no matter what (turtling is NOT an effective option). Improving oneself just felt more rewarding too... (yes, this isn't about an MMORPG, and may seem very random, but that's because it is, like those ink plot paintings, stream of consciousness be damned...)

Now back to work.

Are you sure about that?

[Jonathan]

And as a death penalty, you would lose your mech and the weapons in it unless you could salvage it. But it would be okay if you couldn't salvage it, because the total value of your mech and all the weapons in it would be a small fraction of your character's net worth. Because your character would have extensive holdings in his bank and in units and drones and planetary defenses and ships and so forth. So dying in combat wouldn't suck much.

On preview: I played TA. Didn't really stick with it. Main issue was just figuring out what any given unit was capable of doing and keeping that all in my head simultaneously. Also, didn't have anyone to play with, really.

I gots no problem with skill being a factor. None at all.

[VLSmooth]

Hmm... for some reason, the situation you describe sounds like a battle of attrition/time, or simply a system with little or no contrasts. Lessening penalties is ok to a certain extent. However, lessening them too much leads to exploitation / lack of motivation to improve due to lack of significant penalties.

More randomness:

I find FFXI's xp system at later levels peculiar, since the max xp you can get per fight stays constant at 200 (without xp chaining) along with the death penalty (~10% xp for the lvl), while the xp you need per level increases (approx. linearly for a while, with a sharp spike at 50).

Yes, I agree later levels should take longer, since there are passive effects (relating to questing, exploring, farming) and the imposed sense of accomplishment. However, either:

• the xp gains per battle should increase
• the xp penalty for dying should decrease
• the xp needed per level should grow slower

The fact 1 and 2 are constant while 3 increases makes later levels much more difficult (although it seems it be for normalization purposes).

Then again, I'm rambling since at later levels players are "usually" more skilled, hence get xp at a faster rate, and the higher Raises (II + III) reduce the death penalty significantly.

Wow, apparently I'm rambling a lot today. Posted to GameFAQs a few times too. Time to switch gears.

Oh, and btw, Genkai 1 SUCKS (Limit Quest #1, needed to raise lvl cap from 50 to 55)